Downvoting due high pending rewards and a lack of engagement?

in newsteem •  last year  (edited)

I've been look at a method to use the wisdom of the crowd and perceived lack of interest in highly rewarded content to help with judgement on downvotes...



not original source but no reference at IBM.com sooo 🤷


At the time of writing and according to my data source (UTC), there are still 8.5 hours left of August 28th 2019. And the total count of downvotes so far today has surpassed the total of any day in the past week. Even more noticeable is the combined weight of these downvotes:

DateSum CountSum WeightFull downvote equivalent
01/08/20193242-9720452972
02/08/20193102-8684254868
03/08/20192134-6704068670
04/08/20192529-8214811821
05/08/20191939-6854359685
06/08/20191641-4175303418
07/08/20192452-5814644581
08/08/20192449-7163653716
09/08/20192812-108390891084
10/08/20192790-7484883748
11/08/20192383-8832999883
12/08/20191823-7206883721
13/08/20194534-8250523825
14/08/20194467-7209649721
15/08/20193655-7869205787
16/08/20195524-8317027832
17/08/20193431-6248539625
18/08/20193353-5962928596
19/08/20192863-6441590644
20/08/20193158-3636864364
21/08/20192841-5670519567
22/08/20192331-3657605366
23/08/20192316-4737647474
24/08/20192081-7145175715
25/08/20192522-7312728731
26/08/20192618-8319849832
27/08/20192235-9110369911
28/08/20192698-164097911641

With east coast America still enjoying their morning coffee, the total weight of downvotes today has surpassed any other day this month with many hours to spare.

#newsteem has spoken.


Prior to the hard fork, there has been discussion on chain (and likely plenty off-chain) regarding where downvotes would be placed - Trending (highly 'valued' content), plagiarism/abuse, and personal vendettas 🤦‍♂️ to name but a few.

There are mechanics in place for the second and I'm not really interested in the third, but what about Trending? Something has to be there - even if every post was zero'd there would still be a list of content (as far as I am aware). And so, how to decide what should be there or not?

As an aside, I just wanted to mention the possibility of having a collection of say 200 accounts (the downvote Oracle?), if say 20 of which downvoted a piece of content, then (all respected) bid-bot votes would be removed auto-magically.

If the terms and conditions of the bots stated this so their users were aware of the risk, and if 200 trusted community members could be found somehow, that could work?

Back to the content with high pending rewards, the wisdom of the crowd, and a piece of script.

(for the links to work you will need to add an @ next to the username of the account in the address bar. I have not included it to avoid notifications going out to these accounts 🐥)

linkcommentspending$_per_comment
link162.80762.807
link157.07957.079
link152.51652.516
link150.74450.744
link147.33547.335
link047.25547.255
link146.96746.967
link146.44746.447
link046.04146.041
link144.47344.473
link143.87643.876
link043.09343.093
link283.55741.7785
link141.5541.55
link041.49641.496
link141.34241.342
link041.13841.138
link140.62740.627
link139.56539.565
link038.54538.545
link138.07738.077
link137.14437.144
link037.08937.089
link134.86234.862
link134.5234.52
link266.23233.116
link132.6432.64
link132.09632.096
link131.83531.835
link031.76731.767

The above is a list of the top 30 pieces of content that have 2 comments or less, are at least a day old, ordered by their pending payout divided by number of comments.

(0 and 1 comment give the same value to avoid divide by 0 (NAN) errors which isn't ideal)

So the content is at least 24 hours old, and should have had some eyes / views in Hot or Trending, but there is little to no engagement? Why?

  • They 'botted' late (post miles from Trending by now)
  • They are just starting out and don't have an audience yet
  • The content isn't interesting

It is likely to be one of these 3 things and so a manual assessment should be made - just starting out and promoting a couple of posts is fair game?

I looked at the recent posting history of the account and also grouped accounts along with their comment count and pending payouts before deciding on which content I would remove a small allocation of the pending rewards from.

One account had over $350 in pending rewards and < 10 comments across 7 posts....


Is this a reasonable approach if taking the additional manual steps prior to action?

Or in other words, is highly rewarded content without engagement which is being consistently(persistently) produced by the same account worthy of a downvote?

Anyway, that's how I've chosen my 2.5 a day - today and yesterday. (Watch the engagement rise from those 25 rep friends 😀)

Cheers

Asher

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Is it not possible to have good posts with high payouts and no comments? I think it's because it's a new thing, that's why there's a lot of downvotes now

  ·  last year (edited)

Yes it is certainly possible, and that's a good reason to check the content before issuing a downvote.

Is it possible to have multiple pieces of content in trending with no comments? Less so without something being not quite right in my opinion.

Personally, I think we should look at Trending from the eyes of a visitor to the site. If they are looking at suspect content which has no commentary, how are they going to feel?

Wow look! I can and get paid this much and I don't even have to respond to anyone #oldsteem

to respond someone needs to comment :D

Alright

I wonder if there is an existing solution for this problem already.........

Is it not possible to have good posts with high payouts and no comments?

No, I don't think that's possible, not organically anyway.
Sure, there could be 100% votes from for example @theycallmedan, @blocktrades and @smooth, leading to a high payout value without them commenting on it; in theory that is. But I highly doubt them to upvote content to which nobody else engages with either.
So no: high organic payouts without any engagement is extremely rare if not impossible.

Alright, thanks for your thoughts

Is this a reasonable approach if taking the additional manual steps prior to action?

Interesting idea, but I guess people will start creating artificial comments if it is getting realized ... :)

You've been delegating for almost a year to a solution which doesn't value artificially generated comment engagement...

Indeed. The phone a friend option is tougher to trace though :)

Yes that would be an easy way around it.

The code also found this @bukdb 🤦🏻‍♂️

Thanks for drilling down into the detail. Sometimes the sand on the beach can look different from a height. Your post helps those who stay away from the politics and technicalities.

Posted using Partiko Android

Thank you for the positive feedback :)

That was a great way to do it!

Cheers :D

Thanks for this list. I hit a few, will add the offenders to my rekt list.

  ·  last year (edited)

The rekt list, nice.

Yeah I took the @ out of the URL so notifications wouldn't go out and so the links will need that adding.

Some of them could be one off willing to improve types, but there are some frequent low-ballers in there too!

  ·  last year Reveal Comment
  ·  last year Reveal Comment
  ·  last year Reveal Comment

You have no SP little man. You’re weak as fuck.

You have no SP little man. You’re weak as fuck.

  ·  last year Reveal Comment
  ·  last year (edited)Reveal Comment
  ·  last year Reveal Comment
  ·  last year (edited)Reveal Comment

Sorry for being a bit slow on this but do “downvote trails” exist yet?

Posted using Partiko iOS

Yeah https://steemit.com/@steemflagrewards

I think the code for using just the free 2.5 is still being worked on but they have been going a while and mainly target low grade posts that have been promoted.

Yeah that code will be useful to step up the reward redistribution activity. Cheers

Posted using Partiko iOS

At least Steem users once again have a use for looking at the trending page for flagging! Perhaps that will one day turn into worthwhile being in trending.

Are you filtering out known auto reply from bots on posts to determine the count? A couple I clicked on that shows 1 comment was left by a bot. Removing those comments might yield a better result not already being done so.

:) Yep, a new reason which will hopefully in time be replaced by 'oooh, that's not actually that bad an article'

Most are bot comments from what i saw, but quite varied. I'll probably add a list but i think that this approach will not work for long - long enough though hopefully :)

I'm still trying to understand how the down votes are being used. What is the effect of a down vote and is there anything in place to protect us from malicious and retaliatory use of down votes?

Some of curation highlight post like the first link could take a hit, I really do not think they should bid bot them myself, however it is a method to get their list of what they felt was valuable content highlighted. Are these list worth the dollar amount they get? not sure myself. I have been put on a list or two a few times but have rarely commented back on the list. If they gave a real vote to my content then I would vote for them, but if it is just a look at my list help me make money off the backs of other peoples work then I completely by-pass it.

That being said they do provide a sort of service for people looking for content, so a couple bid bot buys and the rest all trails or manual votes, a very hard thing to see. I do not think automated down votes would work, there is just to much subjective stuff to evaluate.

That was bid on today too, day 6 of the post........

I know steemleo do not like daily curation ($) highlight or staking posts, they are easy to produce and from what I see do not earn much engagement.

Most of the ones I have ever viewed did not have a lot of comments, but they do get what look like a lot of real votes too, mostly trails I am sure. Until there is a click through feature we will never know if these curation, "Look at what I found" post are used or not. I know I have clicked a few highlighted post on various list, but not a lot, and I myself rarely vote on them because I try to vote on created content and assembling a list of links,..like you said...easy to do, so pretty low effort on their part.

Whilst I'm not keen on getting less on my payouts, already quite under-valued in my [totally] objective and neutral opinion 😁 I see an opportunity to potentially increased my exposure whilst other's are holding back their content due to their concerns over getting less reward. I see it as a time to push some content out and reach curators looking to click that upvote button.

I used my two DV's yesterday and will do so again today and everyday as I see the benefit of pushing out the rapers...Who likes rapey people anyhow? I saw a comment on this post Asher, one which said the person is afraid to DV due to reprisals...Funny how the perception or thought of bullying can have the same effect as the act itself.

Anyway, I better go and write some more content...It's magnificent you know, my content...Speaking from a truly neutral and unbiased position of course. 😏

Very undervalued, not 'quite' :)

Funny how the perception or thought of bullying can have the same effect as the act itself

Indeed. It's a shame they feel that way, I hope #newsteem shifts perception.

More content, throw some #sportstalk in at times too :)

I've got one going up tomorrow on sportsalk actually. It's magnificent! 😶

I shall take a look and likely support, although perhaps not in that order 😬

Grazie mille.

check out @kgakakillerg I think he fit the description pretty well, be warned he is a big fan of retaliation

You flagged me for no reason @gunsmithing

20 dollar earnings on a post rewarding some "lucky person" with a .02 cent card, hundreds of upvotes with only a couple comments seems like a spam post to me... I flagged it and you flagged everything of mine you could find, good news for me I don't post that often. And I powered up my steem so I can play this game if you would like.

I don't play games you've been warned

You don't write anything but spam either. Your warning is noted

You need to just leave it If I write nothing but spam why do I get upvotes from some big players in steemit who I know personally I did use bidbots alot in the past but I will not use them like that any more I've invested money in this I've never powered down I upvote all the main people I do the best I can.
edit I just see you down vote my posts again

Yes I downvoted more posts, I don't respond kindly to intimidation attempts. If you believe you are trying your best my sincerest apologies, but i'm sure you would agree this is not trying your best https://steemit.com/photography/@kgakakillerg/snickers-almond
I am happy to quit downvoting you, I propose you write an article in which you create something for yourself(art,music,diy, anything of value to the community) I would be happy to upvote it. As to (big accounts upvoting you) It is no concern of mine what they choose to support. Best of luck I hope you choose to make content that means something to you and others

Ok thanks im going to share one of my old music tracks I hope I get a upvote

I just made a post that means something to me I just hope you like it and everyone else

Ok

All right. You’ve finally convinced me to put some effort into finding content worthy of a downvote. I wish we’d do away with the trending page all together, but as long as it’s there, it matters what shows on it.

Posted using Partiko iOS

I guess Steemit.com needs to present something to the outside world.

Good to hear you taking a look!

Great work once again Asher. At the leading edge of the analytics on this once again. Hopefully some of the bigger stake will take notice.

Thanks. Yeah it seems the post was noticed and action has been taken :)

I think I will stay away from posting, because it's not my thing.. I'm not an author and I just can't take it when someone downvote my post. Playing steemmonsters is a better choice for me. The HF21 game only for the powerful and Strong based community members.

  ·  last year (edited)

Post about Splinterlands and tag #battle #steemace #spt

You can earn Tribe tokens with very little risk of downvotes :)

https://www.splintertalk.io/steemmonsters/@abh12345.spt/hf21-quest-day

It's not clear at all that lack of engagement should be punished. A post can be valuable even without much engagement.

If the ability to draw eyeballs is one criterion by which content should be evaluated for eligibility to be in Trending, then some type of metrics could be useful. Posts that have the ability to attract a lot of viewers from outside of the Steem user base should be rewarded.

Certainly not the be all and end all, but it did help surface a list of potentials, and I see that you have downvoted at least one on the list - maybe not via this post, but as long as we get there one way or the other I guess.

Posts that have the ability to attract a lot of viewers from outside of the Steem user base should be rewarded.

I could not agree more, but if they have attracted no interest on the 'inside', are they likely to be of interest from the outside of Steem?

I've been doling out more than my 2.5 100% downvotes in the past couple of days. It's been a pleasure to witness the face of Trending to transform so rapidly.

It certainly has!

That's a very good way to do it!! I have been more of a how much for that shit? kinda guy. It is great though. I really do get the feeling that downvotes are being normalised and that is no bad thing. I hope the impetus keeps up!

  ·  last year (edited)

Cheers! I didn't include the 2nd table but when you see accounts that are stacking up those pending rewards, consistently in trending, and getting 0 comments - something ain't right!

how much for that shit?

Also works :)

The early impetus is good. I have been told that 'people won't handle the death threats, doxxing, harassment, and retaliation flags' and so the numbers could well drop off if that happens :O :O

Hehe, that's the funny thing, I have yet to set mad behaviour although I did see some dude on trending plead innocent to wrongdoing and ask for them to be removed. Lol!!

Was that the one where the content entries would have paid for the prizes 4x over?

Tres genereux monsieur!

I think it was!!!!

I didn't know!!! Where are the rules!!!

There are no rules!!

Why would people downvote a high reward post? If the post is legit and of good quality, then to downvote it just because the rewards are high is downright unfair and bullying.

Posted using Partiko Android

did you read only the first 5 words of the title and nothing else? sheesh.

Lol that's why I normally slap a few headings between my content so even skimmers can get the jist of it lol

the problem of today's people, scan thru text with 100 mph speed 🥴

Seemingly didn't even make it through the title though - even I'm not that bad!

#NewSteem is good, but we need to send this message too, #ShutTheBotsDown

I'm not sure they will be shut down, but used more sparingly would be a good start.

That taifkan guy needs to relax with bidbots, spent all on him. Why boost such nonsense to trending, absolutely shameless.

That's where all mine have gone for the past couple of days - that stuff is surely not what people want to see.

Comments have really dried up on this HF i've seen quite a few posts get a few manual upvotes and get more rewards than the author usually gets but still 1 or 0 comments, I feel like Im one of the only people still commenting, although it helps to get some ESTM tokens for my comments I still like to blab on peoples posts and for the most part they pretend to like it when I do

  ·  last year (edited)

I have commented less these past few weeks to be honest, but still scrape into the EL top 20, hmm...

See you around a lot though, fair play.

Can you tell me what you do with these ESTM tokens, @chekohler? I just found out a have a lot of them when I upgraded esteem today. I did not have a notification on my old version anddid not even know they were there. I am commenting and posting as normal. I will move more commenting/replying to esteem if this makes sense. TY for any info.

If you're on the android version 2.2 on your mobile or 2.2 desktop app you can now exchange them for upvotes or burn them for additional promotion space in the app or donate/tip them to other users

Thank you very much for this info. I will try to got the upvotes since I am in the desert now, lol.

  ·  last year (edited)

I'd already downvoted on one from your list Asher.

But I've got to be honest, when you see a bidbot owner downvoting a bidboted post that makes me wonder if we're not all being manipulated somewhat with this #newsteem narrative. Shouldn't we hold them to account for making the whole shit show possible?

Food for thought. I will be writing longer posts again soon when I return from holiday and a lot of them will be about these discrepancies in the behaviour we're all being herded toward 👍

Posted using Partiko Android

I know what you are saying, and have heard others discussing also.

Not sure if there is a solution as yet but it does seem like wasted energy.

Looking forward to your thoughts, enjoy the rest of your hols :)

Cheers m8, I'm enjoying this trip out of the city. Off up on moors today for a walk.... I nearly got sun stroke on Sunday when I went hiking. Who would have thought it could be sunny in Yorkshire at the tail end of August 😂 there's a first time for everything ☀️

P.s. I have a simple solution in mind for including the owners in the newsteem campaign to clean up steem. But I'll wait to detail it another time when I'm not in relaxation mode. Something tells me it won't be an idea that will inspire a relaxing steem experience for me.

Laters

Sounds like a plan - no need to rank mode when you are relaxed. And sunshine on the moors - first I've heard of this in Yorkshire!

Interesting idea! I need something to make flagging easier.

None of the links in your second table work btw.

Cheers!

The small print above the table states you need to add a @ before the username - i didn't want to get a bunch of angry people arrive, no more than usual anyway :D

I am still scared of downvoting as I dont want retaliation. An alt account COULD be a good way to do this but far out, does my head in switching betwewn various accounts already. Kudos to those who are DELIBERATELY seeking them out and using up their downvotes.

Im still at a losss at why posts at less than 20 steem get less. So far no one has been able to explain the logic of this to me.

If you look at some of the links, they are littered with downvotes - don't be afraid, you are in the majority :)

Im still at a losss at why posts at less than 20 steem get less. So far no one has been able to explain the logic of this to me.

I'm not the right person to explain in detail, but an adjustment to the reward curve is something to do with it!

I'm pleased to see what the larger stakeholders are doing out of the gate. If they continue over the long term there may be a payoff.

Yep, a continuation and more if possible!

My 3speak videos average between $15-20, have a small amount of comments and receive votes hours after posting. The only "bot" I use is a curation trail and that gives me about .90 cents. The rest of my payout amount comes from actual humans with large SP.

Would my posts need to be reviewed?

I cannot answer, but would not downvote without checking out the content first - no comments could just mean a lack of visibility for you right now.

One thing to watch for it that there will be less engagement now as comment votes are simply unattainable to many past the dust level due to the 'curve'.

There's only the big guys that can hand them out, and it's quickly going to deplete the VP.

Of course.. we could state at the foot of posts, 'comments will be upvoted, in this post', which may cause some engagement.

It's a little sad to me that this is the case. I like the HF21 stuff, but the curve, I have my reservations about.

  ·  last year (edited)

comment votes are simply unattainable to many past the dust level due to the curve.

I have to be honest, I like this mechanism to an extent. I'll explain my reasoning. I've personally found that some people who spend their VP on mainly upvoting comments on their own blog posts often become lazy in actually reciprocating the interest and support they recieve by visiting the blogs of the people who support them. I'm talking about actually taking the time to read, comment and maybe vote the other person's post/s.

For me, that type of behaviour has driven a pretty wide gulf between myself and some content creators on steem who I spent months trying to build relationships with (through reading, commenting and upvoting their posts), only to realize that they're so arrogant that they won't even read one of my posts and feedback on it. Tbh, it might not even be anything more than that they've got used to comment voting as a tactic to try and drive engagement to their blog, but the reality is that it's nothing more than sitting in an ivory tower basking in their perceived awesomeness lol. Awesomeness that's somewhat inflated by the fact that they pay people for their comments through votes. I'm hopeful that some of those old school steemians (dolphin/orca level) who've set themselves up in a nice little circle jerk, and rarely vote outside of it other than in rewarding comments, will be forced to poke their head out of the cave now, go do some networking and read others posts like everyone else.

I feel like it's possible that this dust vote on comments thing may actually encourage more honest engagement, and distribution of rewards. That's my hope anyway.

P.s. I'm a massive hypocrite in regards to everything I'm saying here in the last couple of months because my engagement has been aweful, but there are legitimate real-world reasons for that. Previously, I practiced exactly as I'm preaching 😉 and will be becoming much more active in networking in a week or two when certain circumstances change.

#noholdsbaredwednesday

often become lazy in actually reciprocating the interest and support they recieve by visiting the blogs of the people who support them

Feeling a bit guilty over here.

A lot of it is time or lack of it. The more SP you get, the more attention.., there are obvious reasons why which I hardly need to explain.

You get to a point where it becomes work and not enjoyment. I do some auto-voting and some manual curation but do comment less than I used to for this reason.

I get shit at home from @bingbabe for, 'being on the computer too long' another reason. I try and do this stuff at work if I can, but you can only do so much of that.

This wasn't aimed specifically at either of you guys @abh12345 @slobberchops

obvs I made the decision not to name names in the comment simply cause I don't see the point in starting fights that are pointless. It was more meant as an observation of my experience of steem, also why I don't comment anymore on certain users posts. After a certain amount of time, and SP 😉 some people start to believe in their own hype and perceived importance. Lol, I've observed that quality of content is rarely the defining factor in that hype.

The reciprocal nature of steem goes down as you gain more SP for sure. I found myself doing it as I gain high enough SP to reward comments, and when I noticed it in myself I had to question it, as I always used to see a comment on my post as a trigger to go check out that person's profile and latest post. If their content was poo, I'd never feel guilty about ignoring them, but if it was good I'd follow them and if it was in my field of interest I'd take the time to read, comment and vote. I guess it's a balancing act as you gain more SP and followers. If we look at anomadsoul's posts when he had the blocktrades delegation for example, there is no way he could even answer all the comments, let alone check out all the users commenting.

P.s. honestly, this wasn't meant as a guilt trip. Just sharing my thoughts 😂

If we look at anomadsoul's posts when he had the blocktrades delegation for example, there is no way he could even answer all the comments

It gets like that at times, though I always try to respond to comments on my own posts.. but on other's I'm not so hot.

Many have left, so it's not as bad as before, unless the topic is STEEM related.. then there's many more comments :(

I don't like the curve, either. I had lunch with another Steemian today who also hated the curve because 20 STEEM is actually a high threshold.

Now it's harder to get to it... then yes it is... too high!