Conversation with @theMarkyMark about flags and abuse:

in steem •  10 months ago 

I was happy to have a pretty full conversation with one of the top witnesses @themarkymark under a post by @acidyo talking about how flaggers are targeting the comments in @acidyo's community.

I used this opportunity to test the waters on my 'Lower from 30% to 10%' bid.

How do you think it went? Well first of all, it appears I did not have all my information right!

So its 25% apparently. But I still believe if was arbitrary - although not for lack of dicussion or words written about it.

Here is the crux of Marky's point, and I see it too, more clearly after talking to him. The fighters need 25% because most people do not use their flags to fight evil.

I think there is real disagreement about what flags should be used for. I personally have only been convinced successfully for SCAM and PLAGERISM.

Once upon a time I used a flag against low value content (a single youtube link without commentary) and tried to use the flag to teach. When I watched this guy turn into a free speech warrior, and acuse me of being a bitter troll for abusing his right to share youtube links, that really started making me think about the flag narrative. I didn't teach that guy anything except that (at that time) steemit was uncomfortable because people flag.

Thus if I personally weigh the value added by each flag, many of them would be NEGATIVE overall consequences. (I admit that the important work in SCAM and PLAGERIM is less visible).

Just a slight mistep by Marky, but here is a good point to point out how respected I feel when people actually listen and respond coherently to the arguments, which Marky is doing here.

Milk and Abuse! I went over to haejin's blog wondering what had happened to it. Its dead. So I wondered what he would do with his more than a million SP on ranchorelaxo - I honestly had to know so I looked it up on steemreports.com.

Handing out rhymebot vote for hyperbole...its a stretch but I really wanted to be friendly, and I don't know about you guys but I get the feeling sometimes when I try to type friendlyly in serious discussions that people think I'm a dick. So I am working on that XD

I took the opportunity to lay out what I'm all about. My biggest concern is the real impact a single flagger with his 13 or however many accounts is having on the @steembasicincome community, one that I care about and participate in.

He shot me straight - SBI is not seen as a USER CURATION PROJECT based in synergy and mutual growth.


Thank you @themarkymark for taking the time to speak with me, and leaving me more aware than when I began.

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@themarkymark - I'm posting a section of this comment that I made because I feel that it speaks to @ecoinstat's recent conclusion of "SBI is not seen as a USER CURATION PROJECT based in synergy and mutual growth."

If you look at the people buying into @SBI program, you will find most of them put a lot of work into what they post. Since most people don't give away shares at complete random, you will further find more people who are putting in the work. Isn't this what we want on the platform? Do they get "curated" by a human every time they post? I'm pretty sure not. Taking into account the above two sentences, those who don't get blacklisted from the multiple quality blacklisting providers, which in turn gets them BL'ed from receiving SBI - "oversight", will receive their UV on just about every post they make. For those just starting out on the platform, have an UV, no matter how small, helps with user retention. Isn't this what we need and want?

Even if @SBI falls into the "paid votes" category, there is a huge difference from anyone and everyone getting that "paid vote" to a select few getting that "paid vote," as outlined in the above a paragraph. Should this not be taken into consideration when taking a stance?

That "paid upvote" is an investment akin to powering-up steem, although it works a little differently. Basically, the more we put in, the more we get back - over time.

Thank you @ecoinstant, for using the CO2 Compensation Coin (COCO) to reduce your CO2 footprint.

There is a Proof of Work project which shares many parellels to the STEEM project called the DevCoin Project. Where STEEM chose the social media model to reward content creators, DevCoin chose the Wikipedia model after branching out from rewarding Open Source Programmers.

The same marketting brand of get paid to write was used by DevCoin. And come they did draining DevCoin of wealth in their reward and dump cycle until it was made worthless; something the DevCoin Project is still trying to recover from.

My arrival on the STEEM blockchain was due to an interest in a fast, no fee transaction blockchain that eventually was made scalable with MIRA's released, coupled with the innovative DPoS system.

It was clear to me, after my long involvement in the DevCoin Project, what to expect. My prediction of the bottom was a little premature when buying up to Dolphin but that was not the only surprise.

Over the last couple of years STEEM has begun to shake its role as a blogging one trick pony. Before finding a non-recoverable low the use of STEEM as a utility token started to find traction with the proliferation of dApps on The Chain, supplanting the currency aspect of STEEM to, oh, so much more.

Anyone that is posting a picture to the blockchain and gaining rewards is not bringing value to the blockchain. Only text is saved to the blockchain. Who gives a hoot how many steps one has taken today? Maybe the person exercising, but do you? Really?

This ship has been sinking in value, not from lack of users but because of an army of goldiggers who have been dumping rewards as quicky as they are gained.

We need more downvotes if anything, as the STEEM Utility Token takes hold!

STEEM On!!!

P.S. Look at the litany of bot comments preceeding this one. A lot of counterfeit STEEM in my opinion.

While I totally agree with you (UTILITY TOKEN OF STEEM) that ephiphany has been unlocked for me. What I am trying to build on steem will unlock that even more - thinks like steem-as-a-service so not everyone needs an account (easily solveable with OAuth, but I can't give the idea away! I'll have to build it myself).

But - the utility is what prevents the token from losing all value. As that utility goes up, people will keep scooping the cheap steem. There is no need to remove the value (reward pool) to what is a very effective one two punch.

DO I care about steps? No. But I think Actifit is an innovative use of Steem Power. That most users will dump isn't necessarily bad (in a steem-as-a-service model I would make sure my users dump to me :) as long as there are people buying the steem power for its utility.

I always love your careful feedback.

Talking about bots - automation is just human intention more efficiently. I agree that you can automate avarice but I try to automate support and synergy (and use feedback to prevent abuse) so that I don't have to spend all day on the web browser and can go build another tool or poke at another dev building me a tool.

SO - the price has been sinking on steem, but has the VALUE? I think you should look back at your words, because price is irrational and too many use this irrationality to make their points, but this gains no traction among the rational.

Just an observation - those that see this value have been buying that low priced steem, and steem has been bullish against both btc and the usd, by my charts for almost a month now (as in confirmed bull rally beginning). These things reverse, I am no oracle, but I will try to bring it back around - the one-two punch of RC + VP is STEEM's SECRET SAUCE.

(I am fully avoiding the dv issue in this one, I'm aware. ;p)

SO - the price has been sinking on steem, but has the VALUE? I think you should look back at your words, because price is irrational and too many use this irrationality to make their points, but this gains no traction among the rational.

A very good point and bad choice of words on my part. My continued involvement in the DevCoin Project, for example, indicates that to me the value of a hard to duplicate and secure by merge mining with BTC blockchain like DevCoin has an intrinsic value above and beyond fiat. The same can be said for STEEM.

(back to downvotes)
Philosophically I don't like it, but as you say a more strict downvote policy (which we are in now, if as marky says, most haven't even started to use their downvote) may be has many benefits.

I am particularily interested in tribes and upcoming SMTs, as the steem chain is absolutely exploding with sub-projects and potential, its spectacular. How this interacts with rewards and votes and flags is going to be very interesting. Would it be reasonable to speculate that any coin that can be milked easily will fall in price against steem? We are in the wild west of token-economics, but there are positive examples, and this will lead to best practices for builders....and on and on!

Communities and SMTs are going to be a boon for STEEM in my opinion. It will take the social media aspect of STEEM and fine tune it to a useable communications tool which it naturally was; if not designed with that in mind by its creators.

We will now have our little backwaters of like minded folk with the control of that backwater not based on stake but with them who had created the space.

In my mind the successful tokens will be those that are earned by the criteria of them who had issued it and balanced by their need for a service which they provide. For example a site which issues tokens to people who upload widgets to a site and the same token is required to download said widgets; thus creating a motivational ecosystem. We shall see this throughout society as time goes on, in my opinion, as the utility aspect overtakes the currency aspect of crypto.

Thank you for supporting @CatsMakeKittens by being a part of our community @ecoinstant.

Each CATS you purchase gets you daily upvotes from me @CatScientist as our community grows so do your rewards for being a member!

Hi @ecoinstant, a modest tip of appreciation:
$trendotoken and !trendovoter .
Also, please check out my Second Nonsense Writing Contest.
Thanks!

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I personally believe our downvote pool is good as is ( or could be higher! ). Yes, scammers & shit-heads can & will use this to misbehave, but to be fair they need to invest quite heavily to be able to do so.

I haven't seen that many hardcore abusers to be honest. That mmmmk guy at least has a clear ideology behind his actions. Whether or not I agree with them, he doesn't come off as an abuser.

I'm sure this is no surprise to you, but I'm here for the awesome opportunity Steem provides to devs, communities, and more :^)

Through thisnopen converstaion I have actually come to believe that downvote pool size should be a witness setting that doesnt require a hardfork to change.

Thus both the cases for more and less could support that petition.

Good idea!

Once upon a time I used a flag against low value content (a single youtube link without commentary) and tried to use the flag to teach. When I watched this guy turn into a free speech warrior, and acuse me of being a bitter troll for abusing his right to share youtube links, that really started making me think about the flag narrative. I didn't teach that guy anything except that (at that time) steemit was uncomfortable because people flag.

Flags (downvotes) are not to teach people a lesson, as someone who has been downvoting well before it was cool and free, very rarely is it accepted well.

Downvotes are about putting the rewards where you believe they should be based on your stake.

While scamming and plagiarism are ideal cases for downvotes, you also have spam like churchofgod does by replying to almost everyone, you have people posting a image off the web and making more than our best authors. All these situations are good uses for downvotes. By removing rewards from users who are not putting any effort in you can ensure the ones that are putting efforts in will get a larger portion of the reward pool.

@ecoinstant here, on mobile. Would you support adding DV pool size as a witness setting, so it could be adjusted up or down without hardfork?

Does this seems like something we could mostly all agree on?

I would be against that.

If it was a parameter, it would be changing constantly and you may have positive downvote mana now with any update it may go negative. Even micro changes would cause it voting mana to be in constant flux.

While in principle I am ok with it, technically it would be a disaster.

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Thanks for being a part of this awesome community. Keep on doing what you are doing!